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10/20/05 Aubs Message #2740   Jerry: It is? It does?

10/20/05 Bob Guimond Message #2739   "Mr Sanner, what is the statue of the case of Josh. I feel you are reading this very often to see what people are saying. Do you really thing the turtles ate Josh???????????????? ... What about turning around and thinking this was an abduction and not just a missing person. ... Bob Guimond"

10/19/05 Bob Guimond Message #2735   If i remember right the sheriff has to ask for the FBI or BCA to become involved as sheriff's are like a self appointed leader and no one even up the the FBI or the BCA or anyone in state government will get involved if not invited. The sheriff so far has not wanted any outside intervention for whatever reason, he had to ask the Trident to come in at his invite or they would not have come and that did not come till St. Johns had dismised school, I guess St. Johns didn't want any bad publicity and the Sheriff went along with it, so who is running the show?????

10/19/05 DoubleDash Message #2734   Mr. Guimond, I feel I owe you an apology. You are right, in all my studying of this case, I have not considered the possibility that Joshua may still be alive. I will spend more time thinking about that. I pray for Joshua every day. I pray that God will show us the right path to follow in finding Josh. I truly did not mean to offend you with all my theorizing. My intentions are only good. I do believe there may be people reading this board who haven't found the courage (yet) to come forward. I don't want people to think this is a "cold case" and that only Joshua's family are still looking for answers. I have done other things to search for Joshua besides writing theories here. Like you, I just want him to be found.

10/19/05 DoubleDash Message #2733   No, Mr. Guimond -- you are wrong. We do not post here to simply see our ideas in print. That would be a waste of time. But to my way of thinking, it's never a bad thing to communicate to anyone who will read/listen, that we want to know what happened to Joshua. Many people read this board, Mr. Guimond. Among them may be someone with information. Sometimes it takes people years, maybe decades, to be willing to come forward. I made a vow to study and follow this case until we get answers. That's the only reason I'm here, and I dare say it is the only reason Aubs and the others are here too. I hope you can find it in your heart to understand that we care about Joshua, and that's the *only* reason we are here. Thank you for listening.

10/19/05 Aubs Message #2732   Mr. Guimond: As you may know, I am very concerned about Joshua’s disappearance and the apparent lack of vigor and enthusiasm by various authorities to fully investigate his disappearance. I have no direct evidence that Josh is deceased; however, regrettably there also does not appear to be any evidence that he is alive. I sincerely wish the latter had not been the case. You ask if I have ever considered the possibility that Josh might have been abducted. Yes, that is the conclusion I have reached after investigating all other possibilities. The sheriff’s public explanations do not hold any water – or mud, for that matter. I do not deny the existence of cult activity in Stearns County or the State of Minnesota; however, I have no incontrovertible evidence that a cult was involved in Josh’s disappearance. (I am aware of some of the evidence the Guimond family has collected; however, I do not believe it excludes alternative explanations.) Regarding the BCA and the FBI in particular, if they do not get more fully involved, who will? No one else has the police power or the investigative resources to do what will be required to resolve this matter. I believe the FBI’s initial involvement was primarily to investigate possible links with the disappearances of Chris Jenkins, Michael Noll, and Erika Dalquist. When that did not pan out, they receded into the background and I don’t believe they have ever been fully engaged in the investigation since.

10/11/05 DoubleDash Message #2728   "The 1978 Huling family murder was unsolved for 16 years until it was handed over to the BCA Cold Case Unit and solved on the first day." Oh my --unbelievable. You made another valuable point I hadn't considered -- that solving sexual homicide cases takes a great deal of specific experience in that particular area. What a tragedy, though, that those resources were not called in sooner. I know of several recent similar cases in which outside resources were immediately called in and they were quickly solved. I imagine law enforcement can't always piece it together in their minds the probability of a particular case being the work of a sex offender. In most cases of missing young people, I at least evaluate that possibility right from the start. However, now we have this trend in the mid-west of intoxicated young men drowning in lakes, which still mystifies me. I have to wonder if this precedent doesn't taint law enforcement's thinking when initially evaluating a missing person's case, such as Josh's. It would have served the case much better, obviously, had they thought to examine another line of thinking after Joshua was not found anywhere on campus property. They didn't seem to want to go there, though...

10/10/05 Aubs Message #2727   "DoubleDash: To the best of my knowledge, the last official statement by the Stearns County sheriff on the Guimond matter was a report in the St. Cloud Times on May 6, 2004, after about 10 members of the sheriff’s department’s Mounted Reserves had searched lowland areas that had been too wet to cover in earlier searches but found nothing. At that time, the sheriff was quoted as saying that no more searches were planned, unless new information came to investigators. ### ... In the months since, the media have merely repeated the sheriff’s May 2004 statement that the most likely explanation for Josh’s disappearance ''is that he wandered away from the party [card game] and either fell into a lake or one of the swampy areas on campus.'' ### ... I can only hope that the sheriff’s silence on the matter means that the case has been handed over to the BCA or – preferably – the FBI. The Stearns County Sheriff’s Department has neither the specialized skills and resources necessary to investigate sexual homicide cases, nor am I aware of any such cases they have ever solved. ### ... The 1974 double murder of the Reker sisters was badly botched from the beginning and has remained unsolved for 31 years. The 1978 Huling family murder was unsolved for 16 years until it was handed over to the BCA Cold Case Unit and solved on the first day. The Wetterling abduction site was improperly secured and surrounding properties inadequately searched and the case has been in limbo for 16 years. You know the rest of the story."

10/10/05 DoubleDash Message #2726   Aubs, much obliged for the information you provided on the other abductions. The perpetrator has certainly honed his criminal skills -- he is frightenly adept at fooling/evading law enforcement...alas. It makes me wonder -- does Stearns Cnty Sheriff still stand by their statement that Josh is somewhere in the mire on the campus. I believe that was, in fact, their last official statement on the subject.

10/10/05 DoubleDash Message #2725   http://myexperiments.homestead.com/files/videostill.jpg Ah yes, this picture, I remember it well. Someone recognizes it, yet still balks at coming forward. Why?

10/9/05 Aubs Message #2724   "… we may have a repeat offender on our hands." Well yes, DoubleDash. The apparent lack of any physical evidence in Josh's disappearance suggests an experienced offender. Here are just four cases for a linkage analysis. Kevin Jay Ayotte, missing from the Cass Lake area in Beltrami County since September 30, 1982; Jacob Wetterling, abducted in St. Joseph on October 22, 1989; Christopher Matthew Kerze, missing from Eagan in Dakota County since April 20, 1990; and Joshua Guimond, missing from Collegeville since November 10, 2002. Six months after Jacob's abduction, on April 20, 1990, 17-year-old Christopher Kerze disappeared while home sick from school. His family's van was found abandoned two days later near Grand Rapids, MN – about 50 miles east of where the Ayotte boy had disappeared several years earlier. The Wetterling and Guimond investigations in Stearns County appear to be active, but few remember the Ayotte and Kerze boys. Investigators in Beltrami and Dakota Counties need to dust off their cold case files and check whether an unidentified subject matching this description ever came up in their investigation: Caucasian, medium to large build, slightly above average in height, receding gray hair, and resembling this sketch made nearly 16 years ago, when he was about 50 (see http://myexperiments.homestead.com/files/videostill.jpg). Investigators in all three counties – Stearns, Beltrami, and Dakota – need to look carefully at possible suspects with concurrent residential, employment, family, and/or recreational connections to these three counties.

10/9/05 DoubleDash Message #2723   "There are generally three geographic locations associated with the best executed crimes of this type," I am deducing from this statement that we may have a repeat offender on our hands. This does not surprise me -- but of course what does bother me is the notion that others may have known of this person's criminal behavior -- and did nothing about it. What stops them I wonder -- is it fear of getting involved -- or complicity -- I'm not sure. Thank you for your enlightenment about these matters, I find them extremely helpful in trying to process the particulars of this case. Hello "Anonymous," I know you're still out there reading but not responding -- that's okay, I imagine you feel the need to protect your identity. Still...if you have something you feel may help with this case, I hope you'll say something

10/8/05 Aubs Message #2722   DoubleDash: There are generally three geographic locations associated with the best executed crimes of this type: (1) The abduction site, in close proximity to the place where the offender lives and/or works. (2) A primary, more distant site where the offender interacts with the victim over a period of several hours without fear of being disturbed. This is usually in an isolated location where the offender feels comfortable. In the case of the Katie Poirier abduction, for example, it was Donald Blom's cabin near Moose Lake. (3) A secondary location in relatively close proximity to the primary location, where the offender attempts to dispose of physical evidence. In the Poirier case it was the fire pit on the Blom property.

10/8/05 DoubleDash Message #2721   "Even Joshua's sign has been removed from the campus entrance." How cold can it get...sure, let's take all the signs down and let the matter slip quietly into the past. Sorry folks, not gonna happen!! There is a group of us who aren't going to let it go -- ever!!

10/8/05 DoubleDash Message #2720   "And besides, there's another area many, many miles away that could be searched more fruitfully" Aubs, perchance, are you referring to that area around the cabin the church keeps

10/8/05 Aubs Message #2719   DoubleDash: The problem with ground-penetrating radar is that it's very slow and time-consuming. In the absence of specific information pointing to a particular part of the grounds, GPR would be impractical. And besides, there's another area many, many miles away that could be searched more fruitfully. But I agree with you that more could and should be done. Even Joshua's sign has been removed from the campus entrance.

10/8/05 DoubleDash Message #2718   I wish I had the resources to employ ground penetrating radar to search the campus. But I wonder if Josh would be found there...somehow, I think not...but still, it would be helpful to be able to verify this. It is rare to see a wall of silence such as I have seen in this case. Thank the Lord for persistent people who wouldn't think of giving up.

10/7/05 Nick Message #2717   Jerry, no, I don't know anything I should be telling the police. I didn't even know about the drug issue in the Moorhead case when I wrote that. I was simply thinking out loud as to how someone could manage to fall into a body of water. At any rate, I think the Trident Foundation has made it quite clear that Josh isn't in the water at SJU, so that's hardly an avenue worth investigating at this point.

10/6/05 BMW Message #2716   "It's not just the fact that these incidences occur -- it's the fact that they are covered up and have been covered up for years and years." You're entirely correct, DoubleDash. And of course Fr. Ryan Erickson is not the only one. Stay tuned. A revelation is at hand.

10/6/05 jerry Message #2715   To the individual who mentioned about "hallucinogen"--in the Fargo case a student was arrested for this at the frat house. Do you know something about Josh's disappearance you need to share with police??

10/5/05 DoubleDash Message #2714   "Meanwhile, police documents reveal that Catholic Church officials appear to have known for years about allegations of sexual misconduct by Erickson, who a St. Croix County circuit judge ruled Monday had likely killed O'Connell and James Ellison." I know this is somewhat off topic, but may I still say, it is so discouraging. It's not just the fact that these incidences occur -- it's the fact that they are covered up and have been covered up for years and years. The fact that human beings have sexual perversions is nothing new under the sun -- the fact that people who are known to do things which are unacceptable, and then have those transgressions covered up and allowed to continue -- is simply unacceptable...

10/1/05 Aubs Message #2713   Correct DoubleDash. The signs are there.

10/1/05 DoubleDash Message #2712   Thank you for the clarification, Aubs. I make it a point to remind parents that young men are as susceptible to sexual predators as young women -- and that these villians can appear perfectly "normal." However, if one pays attention and looks more closely, the signs are usually always there. You just have to dig, and keep on digging. Which of course is why we're all here. Thanks again.

9/30/05 Aubs Message #2711   DoubleDash: I don't believe this is connected with Josh's case; the motive profile is different. My information is that Dan O'Connell allegedly got wind that his parish priest was molesting a troubled teenager that had been placed in his care. Then, after he confronted Fr. Ryan, the priest allegedly went and shot Mr. O'Connell (and the intern, who would have been an eye-witness to the murder). Indications are that Josh's abductor is a local individual familiar with the campus and comfortable there at night; he does not arouse suspicion when out and about after midnight. And, in contrast to the O'Connell case where the motive was personal, here we are unfortunately dealing with a sexually sadistic motive.

9/30/05 DoubleDash Message #2710   "Just wondering, did anyone by chance follow this case at all? HUDSON, Wis. -- A prosecutor says he will present ''strong circumstantial evidence'' next week that a Catholic priest killed a funeral home director and an intern more than three years ago. ... St. Croix County District Attorney Eric Johnson told The Associated Press the evidence, which he said will include a motive but no murder weapon, will be presented during a so-called John Doe hearing behind closed doors before Circuit Judge Eric Lundell. ... Lundell will rule whether evidence gathered by police provides probable cause that the late Rev. Ryan Erickson killed the two victims at their funeral home and committed other crimes, Johnson said. He said the hearing is expected to last three days and involve 15 witnesses, both men and women and people of all ages. ... Rev. Ryan EricksonMargaret LevraAssociated Press''I think the case is fairly compelling,'' Johnson said. ''I don't know if it will solve it. If the testimony meets the probable cause standard, I think it will provide some closure.'' ... No charges have ever been filed in the Feb. 5, 2002, deaths of Dan O'Connell, 39, and 22-year-old James Ellison, who were shot in the funeral home office during afternoon business hours in this city across the St. Croix River from the Twin Cities in Minnesota. Several shells fired from a handgun were found, investigators said. ... For months, investigators said the killings were not random and the motive was personal. ... O'Connell's father, Tom, said the victims' families have received hours-long private briefings from police and prosecutors on the evidence against Erickson but he was told not to talk about it. ... ''It all makes sense to me now,'' the father said. ''I am sure justice will come. It is hard for anyone to look at the fact there is a priest involved.'' ... Erickson, 31, was found hanged last Dec. 19 from a fire escape at St. Mary's Church in Hurley in far northern Wisconsin several days after police questioned him about the killings and he denied any involvement. ... Before the assignment in Hurley, Erickson was an associate pastor at St. Patrick Catholic Church in Hudson in 2002 and officiated a portion of O'Connell's funeral as associate pastor. ... Authorities have never said why Erickson became a target of the investigation, other than he was questioned about the murders after a separate investigation was launched last fall into an allegation he was involved in a possible crime involving a child or children, Police Chief Richard Trende said. ... A judge sealed court documents in the case, including search warrant records. ... ''I think we will show through strong circumstantial evidence all the things that are necessary to prove the criminal elements under the legal standards,'' the prosecutor said. ''My goal is to present an objective, unbiased presentation of the evidence. We are not going to get into reputation and character issues.'' ... Attorney Patrick ''Buck'' Schilling released a statement from Erickson's parents, Dennis and Mary Erickson of Minocqua, saying the evidence that was shared with them was ''very weak'' and would never be enough for a jury to convict their son if he were still alive. ... ''We know in our hearts that our son had nothing to do with this awful crime and feel tremendous sympathy for the families of Mr. O'Copnnell and Mr. Ellison,'' they said. ... The Rev. John Parr, now the pastor at St. Patrick, declined comment. ... Only the victims' and the priest's families will be allowed to attend the John Doe hearing, Johnson said. Transcripts of the testimony and other police documents will be released afterward, Johnson said. ... Trende likens the case against Erickson to a ''puzzle that you put little pieces together. Based on the information we have at this time, we have gone as far as we can.'' ... The police chief is unsure whether the priest's supporters will be satisfied that police solved the case. ... ''Whether they accept it or not, they will see things they at least have to pay attention to,'' Trende said. ''I have tried to warn them. This is stuff that is unpleasant that is going to come out.'' ... He added, ''There may always be that one question mark sitting out there too.'' ... Tom O'Connell used the word unbelievable to characterize the evidence he has seen and heard. ... ''You will be saying to me Wednesday, 'Oh my Lord,''' he said. ''You probably won't believe some of the things. ... I want to get out everything that this fella did. I want the people to know everything. I want nothing held back.'' ... Secrecy about what police suspect about Erickson has surrounded the case from the beginning. ... For example, police seized computers from the priest's rectory in Hurley to search them for both existing and deleted programs and e-mails. ... Asked whether the information recovered from them turned out to be important, Trende would say only the computers ''were a value'' for a couple of issues. ... Craig Schauffert, a Main Street businessman, said Wednesday that talk about the case has died down in town but people want answers, especially because it's so hard to believe that a priest could be involved. ... ''I would like some kind of concrete information,'' he said. ''Whether or not they will (provide it), I don't know. My reaction is they won't.'' ... "

9/28/05 DoubleDash Message #2709   Agree with you, Aubs. I just thought I'd throw it out there. Thanks for confirming what I already knew. BMW where are you? Anonymous, you feel you cannot return I guess. Sorry to see that, but I do understand. We're steadily approaching the three year mark for Josh's disappearance. Still praying the fullness of time will expose the truth. We'll never stop pressing for answers, Joshua.

9/28/05 Aubs Message #2708   "Does anyone feel that Josh's disappearance is in any way related to the drownings of these other young men?" No, and in particular not to Patrick. Not his type.

9/27/05 Nick Message #2707   DoubleDash, I agree that it is very, very strange that these things happen. I can see it if a person were under the influence of a hallucinogenic drug, perhaps, but alcohol? I wonder if there are any statistics kept on these types of incidents, as it would be nice to know if they occur with any frequency nationwide. Of course, even if they do, that wouldn't preclude a connection between the drownings in this area, but it would certainly help to know.

9/27/05 DoubleDash Message #2706   I still don't understand how drunk young men somehow wind up in rivers or lakes -- unless they are trying to commit suicide. I've had my share of getting plastered at parties, and never once did I even think to wander near a body of water and walk into it! I mean, to do something like that, you'd have to want to kill yourself! Even an intoxicated person knows when they are getting wet, and walking into water for crying out loud. Very, very strange. Thank God the Trident team did a thorough search of the bodies of water around the St. John's campus, otherwise we'd still have that theory to contend with. Does anyone feel that Josh's disappearance is in any way related to the drownings of these other young men? Nick, BMW, Anonymous, Aubs?

9/27/05 Nick Message #2705   Patrick Kycia's body was found today: http://www.startribune.com/stories/467/5637775.html.

9/27/05 Nick Message #2704   There are a few differences. According to the Star Tribune, two of Patrick's friends received calls from his cell phone. When they picked up, though, there was only a "muffled noise" on the other end, and no voice. Patrick's roommates also found his wallet in the area, which still contained his cash and credit cards.

9/14/05 DoubleDash Message #2702   BMW, I am so glad to see you!! Thank you for everything!! Patiently standing by.

9/14/05 BMW Message #2701   No need for concern, DoubleDash. We're on our post. Everything is going according to plan. A revelation is at hand.

9/13/05 DoubleDash Message #2700   I will admit, I was fearful about registering in order to post here -- and actually, I still am a bit concerned -- and I have my reasons. No website is completely hackproof -- but, some things in life are worth taking a risk for. BMW -- and "Anonymous" -- if you guys don't feel comfortable engaging in further discussion here, though I'm disappointed, I do understand. BMW, I have a lot of respect for you and what you're doing. If anyone can crack this, I think it's you. Anonymous, I could make some connections with your theories but not enough to arrive at a specific conclusion. Anyone out there who has helpful information and would like to talk about it, I'll be checking in. Don't let fear stop you from doing what's right. Peace everybody

9/13/05 Webmaster Message #2699   Nick is correct, the information is certainly held in strict confidence. The privacy policy is clearly posted in the Web Info section of this web site. There were several reasons for the request from Joshua’s family that a registration process be put in place. Non of them was to chase anyone willing to help away. The first was just the fact that it was near impossible to follow conversations with everyone calling them self Anonymous. The registration process helps ensure people are using a unique screen name to help with the discussion. The 2nd reason for modifications was to eliminate the e-mail address from displaying on the message board. There are way to many spammers that find ways of using those addresses to propagate spam and viruses. As a responsible webmaster, it’s important to do my part to limit the spam and virus issue. The 3rd reason was due to a request to help limit the accusations of individual people that have occasionally surfaced on the board. If you are going to accuse someone of something, or even make a hint in that general direction, you need to do it with some responsibility! The responsible thing to do is to use the methods on the Contact Us page to pass along sensitive information to the people who can do something to follow up on the information. You can remain anonymous via these methods. If you’re not willing to do that, then it makes it difficult for anyone to use or follow up on your information. At that point, it’s better off left unsaid. Lets face it, if you really felt your information about someone had merit, posting it via the contact us methods wouldn’t be difficult. Putting it here indicates to me you are just airing your dirty laundry or for whatever your personal gain may be. I have some background in this type of thing. My statements of preserving evidence, allowing proper authorities to investigate what is most possibly a crime, and taking responsibility for the things you say are not without merit. To solve this mystery and bring justice to this issue will require these things. If you really want to help, take responsibility by posting responsibly. This message board is not in the public domain. It is owned by Joshua’s family who had it built for some specific reasons. Feel free to use the board, I know that Joshua's family appreciate the support and hope that people offer by taking an active role. Just do your best to use it with respect.

9/13/05 Nick Message #2698   I would hope the registration requirement would not drive anyone away from the board. I am quite confident that your information will not be revealed to anyone. Remember, the webmaster (presumably the only person with access to the information sent to register) is an ally of anyone who wants to find Josh.

9/11/05 DoubleDash Message #2695   Thank you, Aubs. There appear to be several theories being explored, at least by the seekers on this board. Anonymous, BMW, come back

9/10/05 Aubs Message #2694   DoubleDash: No cause for concern. I'm not going anywhere. As for the alleged tie between the two hospitals, you might also be looking at someone who has been professionally associated with both hospitals -- not as a patient, that is. However, without more concrete information, I'm not rushing down that road. I'll leave it to the law enforcement agency working the case to chase down that tip.

9/10/05 DoubleDash Message #2693   Aubs, Anonymous and BMW, I hope the new, required sign in feature doesn't chase you away...you're about the only light I see in this dark case

9/10/05 BMW Message #2686   Which hospital in Belmont, CA? Is it the Belmont Hills Psychiatric Center?

9/10/05 Anonymous Message #2685   what could the tie between a hospital in belmont ca, and bellevue wa be?

9/10/05 -- Message #2684   Thank you, Aubs. Apparently there are several, distinct trains of thought coinciding here, and I need to keep them separate. I guess "anonymous" (along with many others) believes Josh's disappearance is connected with the other two boys. If that's the case, there must be someone who can be tied into all three...and more, I imagine

9/10/05 Aubs Message #2683   Dash-dash: FYI, Jared in Cold Spring is JS. Second, I’m confident the Huisentruit abduction is unrelated to the disappearances of Jacob Wetterling and Josh Guimond. I believe ''jh'' is James (Jimmy) Hendrickson, a 12-year-old, blond-haired, blue-eyed boy 5 ft. 5 in. tall weighing 140 lbs, who disappeared on June 12, 1991 in Tucson, Arizona. He was last seen at Lavicio’s Market, a convenience store near Grant and Oracle roads. According to a detective with the Tucson Police Dept. with whom I spoke a couple of years ago, foul play is suspected and the case is classified as a non-family abduction.

9/9/05 -- Message #2682   ''"Jared (then12) was sexually assaulted about ten miles away in Cold Spring, Minnesota earlier in 1989.'' Is this who ''jh'' is? ... "

9/8/05 -- Message #2681   ''"Huisentruit pursued her media dreams at Minnesota's St. Cloud University where she studied mass communications. Professors say she stood out at a time when more and more college students were drawn to the television spotlight.'' ... The common denominator is Minnesota ... and -- what else? ... "

9/8/05 -- Message #2680   Jodi Huisentruit... I had been looking only at missing males. Are you saying the three disappearances are connected?

9/8/05 Anonymous Message #2679   need help, a news woman from iowa?

9/8/05 -- Message #2678   "Tulane University freshman Jeremy Houk went to a Mardi Gras party one Friday and never returned to his dorm room. He disappeared sometime after midnight, very early on March 1, 2003 -- just a few weeks before his 19th birthday. ... Houk, whose hometown is Seattle, WA, was last spotted leaving a fraternity party on Zimple Street near the Uptown section of New Orleans. ... No one knew anything. No one saw anything. ... Tall, handsome and smart, Jeremy Houk was a high school debate champion with everything to live for. Jeremy's mother, Gina Marie Lindsey, hired private investigators and got the FBI involved. ... ''I don't want to overreact, but for heaven's sake, it's 12 days later and there's no sign of this kid,'' Lindsey said. ''Mardi Gras is over, spring break is over and classes started yesterday. I'm very, very worried.'' ... In April, a woman claimed to have seen Jeremy on a streetcar the morning after his disappearance. ''He was dazed, looked confused, possibly drunk, but did not really know where he was and he was lying down on the seat of a streetcar,'' she told police. ... But nothing came of that report or any other tips. ... Then on May 14, New Orleans police announced that the student's body had washed up on the banks of the Mississippi River. ... "

9/8/05 -- Message #2676   Jeremy Houck? (jh)

9/8/05 BMW Message #2675   "whose initials are these jw,jh,jg?" Jacob Wetterling, (jh?), Josh Guimond? But what's the point?

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